И еще немного об органических лимонах

Общие темы. Пожалуйста, для обсуждения "конкретных" вопросов используйте соответствующие тематические конференции.
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Stanislav
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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение Stanislav » 26 янв 2018, 14:24

Vlada:
LeeVan:
Stanislav:
LeeVan:
Stanislav:Эк чела плющит...
Забористые у вас лимоны :-)

с дураков всегда плющит.
Покажи где неправильно в раскладах.

Так я не читал, но БТВ не преминул осудить :D

ну и ладно, чего там читать-то?
ты вот чем завтракаешь?

Овсом свеже-заваренным надо завтракать.

Я что лошадь что ли? :what!?:

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение LeeVan » 26 янв 2018, 14:46

Про семена этих самых heirlooms.
В любом каталоге - валом
Откуда??
In some parts of the world, notably the European Union, it is illegal to sell seeds of cultivars that are not listed as approved for sale. The Henry Doubleday Research Association, now known as Garden Organic, responded to this legislation by setting up the Heritage Seed Library to preserve seeds of as many of the older cultivars as possible. However, seed banks alone have not been able to provide sufficient insurance against catastrophic loss. In some jurisdictions, like Colombia, laws have been proposed that would make seed saving itself illegal.

Во как интересно.

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение levak » 26 янв 2018, 15:06

Педерачу по телевизору видел.

Про кого телек то смотрел ? :roll:

У меня вот тоже лемон растет в ведре..Как весна, цветет, запах абалденный по всему владению..
Тока до фруктов дело не доходит, отцветет, только плод завяжется, бух и все отпадает..
Видно агроном не той системы, хотя я видел в магазе плоды на нем, когда покупал..
Вимс забери для мамы твоей ведро с лемоном...pls :director:

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение tasko » 26 янв 2018, 15:38

LeeVan:Очень интересно, где они берут сырье, таксказать.

На дурака не нужен нож,
Ему с три короба наврёшь -
И делай с ним, что хошь!

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение LeeVan » 26 янв 2018, 16:45

levak:Про кого телек то смотрел ? :roll:

Да про этих шарлатанов, которые Кисету на ящик лимонов развели.

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение Hairy Potter » 26 янв 2018, 17:12

LeeVan:
levak:Про кого телек то смотрел ? :roll:

Да про этих шарлатанов, которые Кисету на ящик лимонов развели.


кстати USDA разрешает использование cell fusion and mutagenesis in organic food industry



Cell fusion is accomplished by combining the material from two different cells through either chemical (enzymes) or electrical stimulation. You are breaking down cell walls and intermingling material to see what comes out.

So, as long as you combine the cells of different types of the same vegetable such as two different types of broccoli through electrical stimulation or by chemicals in order to produce a seed that has a targeted trait, that is acceptable to the USDA National Organics Program (NOP).

“…the NOP further concludes that cell fusion (including protoplast fusion) is not considered an excluded method when the donor cells/protoplasts fall within the same taxonomic plant family, and when donor or recipient organisms are not derived using techniques of recombinant DNA technology.”

Mutagenesis

Mutagenesis creates a mutation in the plant cell through the application of radiation or toxic chemicals to the seed itself.

Mutation breeding is the process of exposing seeds to chemicals or radiation in order to generate mutants with desirable traits to be bred with other cultivars. Plants created using mutagenesis are sometimes called mutagenic plants or mutagenic seeds. From 1930–2007 more than 2540 mutagenic plant varietals have been released that have been derived either as direct mutants (70%) or from their progeny (30%). Crop plants account for 75% of released mutagenic species with the remaining 25% ornamentals or decorative plants. However, it is unclear how many of these varieties are currently used in agriculture or horticulture around the world, as these seeds are not always identified or labeled as being mutagenic or having a mutagenic provenance.

So, according to the USDA NOP, it is perfectly okay to irradiate or chemically bathe seeds with toxic, carcinogenic substances to produce mutations and still call them organic. Unacceptable.

Mutagenes is (treatment of plants with radiation or chemicals to induce random mutation) is considered part of traditional breeding programs.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/ ... Fusion.pdf

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение LeeVan » 26 янв 2018, 17:35

Hairy Potter:[кстати USDA разрешает использование cell fusion and mutagenesis in organic food industry

Поинт не в том.
Людей много, еды надо производить много. И цена должна быть подъемная.
Решение очевидное.
Высокоурожайные сорта, устойчивые ко всем болячкам, интенсивные технологии, синтетические удобрения.
Почва то истощается быстро, а продукта надо много.
Соответственно качество продукции нормируется исходя из текущей реальности.
Шаг влево, шаг в право и ты выпадаешь из индустриальной цепочки.
Результат? Продукта получаешь меньше, а затраты те же, если не выше.
Цена идет вертикально вверх.
Плюс топ нотч продукт это сверхкороткие сроки реализации.
Собрал десять тонн клубники. Типа органической
Через двое суток она превратится в амно.
Сдашь оптом, чтобы не сгноить. Что тоже откусит от твоей прибыли шматочек.
И так мал помалу уйдешь в минуса.
Чем более канительный и качественный продукт, тем выше цена и ниже шанс сбыть.

А теперь погляди на колличество фэнси ресторанов для вегетарианцев и на цены в них.
Во первых откуда такое кол-во продукта, который они клеймят как супер топ?
Во вторых откуда такие цены?
Отними профит ресторана, поставщика, транспортировку, налоги и подумай, как на эту сумму можно произвести продукт заявленного качества в потребном колличестве.
Арифметика процесса тупо не сходится.
Объяснение одно.
Прямое или завуалированное терминами жульничество в угоду моде и прибыли

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение LeeVan » 26 янв 2018, 18:02

Hairy Potter:[кстати USDA разрешает использование cell fusion and mutagenesis in organic food industry

Тоись генетическая модификация.
А оне такие все из себя виганистые, ни капли в рот, ни сантиметра в опу.
Только органик. Который, как выясняется вполне легально генно модифицируется :D

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение Hairy Potter » 26 янв 2018, 18:32

LeeVan:
Hairy Potter:[кстати USDA разрешает использование cell fusion and mutagenesis in organic food industry

Тоись генетическая модификация.
А оне такие все из себя виганистые, ни капли в рот, ни сантиметра в опу.
Только органик. Который, как выясняется вполне легально генно модифицируется :D

Да, облучают гамма лучами для получения мутаций - такой вот органик с бабушкиного огорода.

Вот тут еще их официальный список синтетических substances разрешенных в органик индастри

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c ... 2.7&idno=7

§205.601 Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production.
In accordance with restrictions specified in this section, the following synthetic substances may be used in organic crop production: Provided, That, use of such substances do not contribute to contamination of crops, soil, or water. Substances allowed by this section, except disinfectants and sanitizers in paragraph (a) and those substances in paragraphs (c), (j), (k), and (l) of this section, may only be used when the provisions set forth in §205.206(a) through (d) prove insufficient to prevent or control the target pest.

(a) As algicide, disinfectants, and sanitizer, including irrigation system cleaning systems.

(1) Alcohols.

(i) Ethanol.

(ii) Isopropanol.

(2) Chlorine materials—For pre-harvest use, residual chlorine levels in the water in direct crop contact or as water from cleaning irrigation systems applied to soil must not exceed the maximum residual disinfectant limit under the Safe Drinking Water Act, except that chlorine products may be used in edible sprout production according to EPA label directions.

(i) Calcium hypochlorite.

(ii) Chlorine dioxide.

(iii) Sodium hypochlorite.

(3) Copper sulfate—for use as an algicide in aquatic rice systems, is limited to one application per field during any 24-month period. Application rates are limited to those which do not increase baseline soil test values for copper over a timeframe agreed upon by the producer and accredited certifying agent.

(4) Hydrogen peroxide.

(5) Ozone gas—for use as an irrigation system cleaner only.

(6) Peracetic acid—for use in disinfecting equipment, seed, and asexually propagated planting material. Also permitted in hydrogen peroxide formulations as allowed in §205.601(a) at concentration of no more than 6% as indicated on the pesticide product label.

(7) Soap-based algicide/demossers.

(8) Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate (CAS #-15630-89-4)—Federal law restricts the use of this substance in food crop production to approved food uses identified on the product label.

(b) As herbicides, weed barriers, as applicable.

(1) Herbicides, soap-based—for use in farmstead maintenance (roadways, ditches, right of ways, building perimeters) and ornamental crops.

(2) Mulches.

(i) Newspaper or other recycled paper, without glossy or colored inks.

(ii) Plastic mulch and covers (petroleum-based other than polyvinyl chloride (PVC)).

(iii) Biodegradable biobased mulch film as defined in §205.2. Must be produced without organisms or feedstock derived from excluded methods.

(c) As compost feedstocks—Newspapers or other recycled paper, without glossy or colored inks.

(d) As animal repellents—Soaps, ammonium—for use as a large animal repellant only, no contact with soil or edible portion of crop.

(e) As insecticides (including acaricides or mite control).

(1) Ammonium carbonate—for use as bait in insect traps only, no direct contact with crop or soil.

(2) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.

(3) Boric acid—structural pest control, no direct contact with organic food or crops.

(4) Copper sulfate—for use as tadpole shrimp control in aquatic rice production, is limited to one application per field during any 24-month period. Application rates are limited to levels which do not increase baseline soil test values for copper over a timeframe agreed upon by the producer and accredited certifying agent.

(5) Elemental sulfur.

(6) Lime sulfur—including calcium polysulfide.

(7) Oils, horticultural—narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.

(8) Soaps, insecticidal.

(9) Sticky traps/barriers.

(10) Sucrose octanoate esters (CAS #s—42922-74-7; 58064-47-4)—in accordance with approved labeling.

(f) As insect management. Pheromones.

(g) As rodenticides. Vitamin D3.

(h) As slug or snail bait. Ferric phosphate (CAS # 10045-86-0).

(i) As plant disease control.

(1) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.

(2) Coppers, fixed—copper hydroxide, copper oxide, copper oxychloride, includes products exempted from EPA tolerance, Provided, That, copper-based materials must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation in the soil and shall not be used as herbicides.

(3) Copper sulfate—Substance must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation of copper in the soil.

(4) Hydrated lime.

(5) Hydrogen peroxide.

(6) Lime sulfur.

(7) Oils, horticultural, narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.

(8) Peracetic acid—for use to control fire blight bacteria. Also permitted in hydrogen peroxide formulations as allowed in §205.601(i) at concentration of no more than 6% as indicated on the pesticide product label.

(9) Potassium bicarbonate.

(10) Elemental sulfur.

(j) As plant or soil amendments.

(1) Aquatic plant extracts (other than hydrolyzed)—Extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction.

(2) Elemental sulfur.

(3) Humic acids—naturally occurring deposits, water and alkali extracts only.

(4) Lignin sulfonate—chelating agent, dust suppressant.

(5) Magnesium sulfate—allowed with a documented soil deficiency.

(6) Micronutrients—not to be used as a defoliant, herbicide, or desiccant. Those made from nitrates or chlorides are not allowed. Soil deficiency must be documented by testing.

(i) Soluble boron products.

(ii) Sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt.

(7) Liquid fish products—can be pH adjusted with sulfuric, citric or phosphoric acid. The amount of acid used shall not exceed the minimum needed to lower the pH to 3.5.

(8) Vitamins, B1, C, and E.

(9) Sulfurous acid (CAS # 7782-99-2) for on-farm generation of substance utilizing 99% purity elemental sulfur per paragraph (j)(2) of this section.


§205.603 Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic livestock production.
In accordance with restrictions specified in this section the following synthetic substances may be used in organic livestock production:

(a) As disinfectants, sanitizer, and medical treatments as applicable.

(1) Alcohols.

(i) Ethanol-disinfectant and sanitizer only, prohibited as a feed additive.

(ii) Isopropanol-disinfectant only.

(2) Aspirin-approved for health care use to reduce inflammation.

(3) Atropine (CAS #-51-55-8)—federal law restricts this drug to use by or on the lawful written or oral order of a licensed veterinarian, in full compliance with the AMDUCA and 21 CFR part 530 of the Food and Drug Administration regulations. Also, for use under 7 CFR part 205, the NOP requires:

(i) Use by or on the lawful written order of a licensed veterinarian; and

(ii) A meat withdrawal period of at least 56 days after administering to livestock intended for slaughter; and a milk discard period of at least 12 days after administering to dairy animals.

(4) Biologics—Vaccines.

(5) Butorphanol (CAS #-42408-82-2)—federal law restricts this drug to use by or on the lawful written or oral order of a licensed veterinarian, in full compliance with the AMDUCA and 21 CFR part 530 of the Food and Drug Administration regulations. Also, for use under 7 CFR part 205, the NOP requires:

(i) Use by or on the lawful written order of a licensed veterinarian; and

(ii) A meat withdrawal period of at least 42 days after administering to livestock intended for slaughter; and a milk discard period of at least 8 days after administering to dairy animals.

(6) Chlorhexidine—Allowed for surgical procedures conducted by a veterinarian. Allowed for use as a teat dip when alternative germicidal agents and/or physical barriers have lost their effectiveness.

(7) Chlorine materials—disinfecting and sanitizing facilities and equipment. Residual chlorine levels in the water shall not exceed the maximum residual disinfectant limit under the Safe Drinking Water Act.

(i) Calcium hypochlorite.

(ii) Chlorine dioxide.

(iii) Sodium hypochlorite.

(8) Electrolytes—without antibiotics.

(9) Flunixin (CAS #-38677-85-9)—in accordance with approved labeling; except that for use under 7 CFR part 205, the NOP requires a withdrawal period of at least two-times that required by the FDA.

(10) Glucose.

(11) Glycerin—Allowed as a livestock teat dip, must be produced through the hydrolysis of fats or oils.

(12) Hydrogen peroxide.

(13) Iodine.

(14) Magnesium hydroxide (CAS #-1309-42-8)—federal law restricts this drug to use by or on the lawful written or oral order of a licensed veterinarian, in full compliance with the AMDUCA and 21 CFR part 530 of the Food and Drug Administration regulations. Also, for use under 7 CFR part 205, the NOP requires use by or on the lawful written order of a licensed veterinarian.

(15) Magnesium sulfate.

(16) Oxytocin—use in postparturition therapeutic applications.

(17) Parasiticides—Prohibited in slaughter stock, allowed in emergency treatment for dairy and breeder stock when organic system plan-approved preventive management does not prevent infestation. Milk or milk products from a treated animal cannot be labeled as provided for in subpart D of this part for 90 days following treatment. In breeder stock, treatment cannot occur during the last third of gestation if the progeny will be sold as organic and must not be used during the lactation period for breeding stock.

(i) Fenbendazole (CAS #43210-67-9)—only for use by or on the lawful written order of a licensed veterinarian.

(ii) Ivermectin (CAS #70288-86-7).

(iii) Moxidectin (CAS #113507-06-5)—for control of internal parasites only.

(18) Peroxyacetic/peracetic acid (CAS #-79-21-0)—for sanitizing facility and processing equipment.

(19) Phosphoric acid—allowed as an equipment cleaner, Provided, That, no direct contact with organically managed livestock or land occurs.

(20) Poloxalene (CAS #-9003-11-6)—for use under 7 CFR part 205, the NOP requires that poloxalene only be used for the emergency treatment of bloat.

(21) Tolazoline (CAS #-59-98-3)—federal law restricts this drug to use by or on the lawful written or oral order of a licensed veterinarian, in full compliance with the AMDUCA and 21 CFR part 530 of the Food and Drug Administration regulations. Also, for use under 7 CFR part 205, the NOP requires:

(i) Use by or on the lawful written order of a licensed veterinarian;

(ii) Use only to reverse the effects of sedation and analgesia caused by Xylazine; and

(iii) A meat withdrawal period of at least 8 days after administering to livestock intended for slaughter; and a milk discard period of at least 4 days after administering to dairy animals.

(22) Xylazine (CAS #-7361-61-7)—federal law restricts this drug to use by or on the lawful written or oral order of a licensed veterinarian, in full compliance with the AMDUCA and 21 CFR part 530 of the Food and Drug Administration regulations. Also, for use under 7 CFR part 205, the NOP requires:

(i) Use by or on the lawful written order of a licensed veterinarian;

(ii) The existence of an emergency; and

(iii) A meat withdrawal period of at least 8 days after administering to livestock intended for slaughter; and a milk discard period of at least 4 days after administering to dairy animals.

(b) As topical treatment, external parasiticide or local anesthetic as applicable.

(1) Copper sulfate.

(2) Formic acid (CAS # 64-18-6)—for use as a pesticide solely within honeybee hives.

(3) Iodine.

(4) Lidocaine—as a local anesthetic. Use requires a withdrawal period of 90 days after administering to livestock intended for slaughter and 7 days after administering to dairy animals.

(5) Lime, hydrated—as an external pest control, not permitted to cauterize physical alterations or deodorize animal wastes.

(6) Mineral oil—for topical use and as a lubricant.

(7) Procaine—as a local anesthetic, use requires a withdrawal period of 90 days after administering to livestock intended for slaughter and 7 days after administering to dairy animals.

(8) Sucrose octanoate esters (CAS #s-42922-74-7; 58064-47-4)—in accordance with approved labeling.

(c) As feed supplements—None.

(d) As feed additives.

(1) DL-Methionine, DL-Methionine-hydroxy analog, and DL-Methionine-hydroxy analog calcium (CAS #'s 59-51-8, 583-91-5, 4857-44-7, and 922-50-9)—for use only in organic poultry production at the following maximum levels of synthetic methionine per ton of feed: Laying and broiler chickens—2 pounds; turkeys and all other poultry—3 pounds.

(2) Trace minerals, used for enrichment or fortification when FDA approved.

(3) Vitamins, used for enrichment or fortification when FDA approved.

(e) As synthetic inert ingredients as classified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), for use with nonsynthetic substances or synthetic substances listed in this section and used as an active pesticide ingredient in accordance with any limitations on the use of such substances.

(1) EPA List 4—Inerts of Minimal Concern.

(2) [Reserved]

(f) Excipients, only for use in the manufacture of drugs used to treat organic livestock when the excipient is: Identified by the FDA as Generally Recognized As Safe; Approved by the FDA as a food additive; or Included in the FDA review and approval of a New Animal Drug Application or New Drug Application.

(g)-(z) [Reserved]

[72 FR 70484, Dec. 12, 2007, as amended at 73 FR 54059, Sept. 18, 2008; 75 FR 51924, Aug. 24, 2010; 77 FR 28745, May 15, 2012; 77 FR 45907, Aug. 2, 2012; 77 FR 57989, Sept. 19, 2012; 80 FR 6429, Feb. 5, 2015; 82 FR 31243, July 6, 2017]

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение tasko » 26 янв 2018, 18:44

Hairy Potter:Да, облучают гамма лучами для получения мутаций - такой вот органик с бабушкиного огорода.

И чем это отличается от ГМО?

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение Hairy Potter » 26 янв 2018, 19:22

tasko:
Hairy Potter:Да, облучают гамма лучами для получения мутаций - такой вот органик с бабушкиного огорода.

И чем это отличается от ГМО?


Same sh.t but profit margins are fatter in organic industry. Например органик помидоры по $10/lbs в Амазон Фудс. Отличная бизнес модел

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение LeeVan » 26 янв 2018, 19:47

Так о тож.
Органик, как есть органик, зуб даю!
А что это означает?
Нуууууу....видишь ту цистерну с черепом и костями, знаком байо хазард и радиации? Так вот, за 20 дней до сбора урожая мы перестаем поливать этой штукой все подряд и выходим на работу без костюма химзащиты и изолирующего противогаза. А через 20 дней химанализ продукта не показывает контаминэйшн на недопустимом уровне.

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение levak » 26 янв 2018, 22:11

(1) Alcohols.

Самая важная субстанция... :lol:
Надо просто побольше добавлять.. :supz:
Alcohols с лимоном! То што надо!
Теперь понятся зачем их покупают в таких количествах.. :roll:
И не придерешься я лимоно-ед....Lemony Snicket..

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение LeeVan » 26 янв 2018, 22:23

Несчастные люди, если разобраться.
Промыли мозги этим "органиком", спрессовали в плотную потребительскую кучу, и разводят на деньги, как лохов на деревенской ярмарке тремя стаканчиками и шариком.

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Re: И еще немного об органических лимонах

Сообщение mikei » 26 янв 2018, 23:22

LeeVan:
Hairy Potter:[кстати USDA разрешает использование cell fusion and mutagenesis in organic food industry

Тоись генетическая модификация.
А оне такие все из себя виганистые, ни капли в рот, ни сантиметра в опу.
Только органик. Который, как выясняется вполне легально генно модифицируется :D

Так ноу-ГМО это отдельная категория. Она может быть не органик, но и не зерном кормленное и не свободно бегающие яйца.
Я еще не видел, чтобы было сочетание всех красивых показателей.

Видел передачу про органическую ферму, фермер говорил, что он кормит куриц правильным зерном, но яйца покупает обычные гмошные от небегающих куриц. Т.е. дело в финальном процессе. А кто-тот пакует в органическую упаковку, добытую из ресайклинга, и называет свою колбасу эко-френдли.


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