Каморка

alya писал(а): Тем временем, на территориях израильтяне развивали инфраструктуру, строили дороги,провели электричество (да-да), канализацию, школы, больницы, открыли 6(!) университетов, короче обживали как умели.

Народ с территорий стал ездить на работу в израильские города, денюжку зарабатывал. По современным, привезенным израильтянами технологиям стал землю возделывать, пpодавая овощи в Израиль. Уровень жизни там быстро повышался и уже был на порядки выше, чем у их братьев в Иордании/Сирии/Египте. A Ramalla вообще после Бейрута считался Самым светским арабским городом. Банки, дискотеки и даже спортивные сооружения, столь редкие в арабских странах. Короче зажили лучше. А сытость и благополучие редко живут в одном доме с ненавистью. Я пишу это не со слов ТВ репортажей или газетных статей. Я этих людей ЗНАЮ ЛИЧНО!

Jimmy Carter писал(а): We drove to Ramallah to consult with the leaders of the Central Election Commission and then met with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas… He pointed out that the people of Palestine now had few opportunities for gainful employment or for contact with either Israel or the outside world, that the Palestinian economy was in shambles, and that Olmert was threatening to withhold about $55 million per month in taxes and customs receipts that were collected on behalf of the Palestinians… He reminded me that there had been no opportunity for a Palestinian leader to participate in peace talks for the past five years, as the Israelis confiscated more and more land in the West Bank and imposed increasingly severe restrictions on his people… Abbas said that despite the conduct of exemplary democratic elections, the Palestinians had never had an opportunity to forge a viable government. Their economic system had been forced back into the preindustrial age ant their territory broken into ever-smaller fragments… It is obvious that the Palestinians will be left with no territory in which to establish a viable state, but completely enclosed within the barrier and the occupied Jordan River valley.
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One of the vulnerabilities of Israel and a potential cause of violence is the holding of prisoners… International human rights organizations estimate that since 1967 more than 630,000 Palestinians (about 20 percent of the total population) in the occupied territories have been detained at some time by the Israelis… Between the ages of twelve and fourteen, children can be sentenced for a period of up to six months, and after the age of fourteen Palestinian children are tried as adults, a violation of international law. In addition to time in jail, the pretrial periods can be quite lengthy. “Administrative detention” is indefinitely renewable under military regulations. Confessions extracted through torture are admissible in Israeli courts.
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Some showed us the wreckage of their former homes, which had been demolished by Israeli bulldozers and dynamite, with claims by Israel that they had been built too near Israeli settlements, on property needed by the Israeli government, or that some member of the family was a security threat. In assessing these claims, the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem explained that, on average, twelve innocent families lost their homes for every person accused of participation in attacks against Israelis.
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Rosalynn visited the largest hospital in Gaza, and the doctors told her that they had great difficulty providing transportation for critically ill patients. They showed her a row of ambulances that had been contributed by a European nation and said that they couldn’t be used. He claimed that Israeli officials refused to issue license plates because the chassis were twelve inches too long.
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Many Palestinians emphasized that they were deprived of their basic human rights. They could not assemble peacefully, travel without restrictions, or own property without fear of its being confiscated by a multitude of legal ruses.
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Most persistent case of abuse was in Hebron, where the biblical patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are buried. About 450 extremely militant Jews have moved into the heart of the ancient part of the city, protected by several thousand of Israeli troops. Heavily armed, these settlers attempt to drive the Palestinians away from the holy sites… deliberately creating physical confrontations. When this occurs, the troops impose long curfews on the 150,000 Palestinian citizens of Hebron, prohibiting them from leaving their own homes to go to school or shops or to participate in the normal life of an urban community. The Palestinians are convinced that some Israeli political leaders were trying though harassment to force a much broader exodus of Muslims and Christians from the occupied territories.
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Their most anguished complaints were about many thousands of ancient olive trees that were cut down by the Israelis. Access to water was a persistent issue. Each Israeli settler uses five times as much water as a Palestinian neighbour, who must pay four times as much per gallon. They showed us photographs of Israeli swimming pools adjacent to Palestinian villages where drinking water had to by hauled in on tanker trucks and dispensed by the bucketful. Most of the hilltop settlements are on small areas of land, so untreated sewage is discharged into the surrounding fields and villages.
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Teachers and parents maintained that their schools were frequently closed, educators arrested, bookstores padlocked, library books censored, and students left on the streets or at home for extended periods of time without jobs.
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One of their most bitter grievances was that foreign aid from Arab countries and even funds sent by the American government for humanitarian purposes were intercepted by the authorities and used for the benefit of the Israelis, including the construction of settlements in Palestinian communities.

alya писал(а): А в Израиле, тем временем
жизнь продолжается, экономика восстановлена,bиржа пухнет, запад инвестирует, ни школы ,ни больницы, ни университеты не закрывались. Живут люди как умеют и надеются на мир, ибо благополучным, обеспеченным людям очень не хочется воевать, уж поверьте мне на слово. Только по крайней нужде.

Noam Chomsky писал(а): More concretely, the special relationship between the United States and Israel is expressed in the level of U.S. military and economic aid to Israel over many years. Its exact scale is unknown, since much is concealed in various ways. Prior to 1967, before the “special relationship” had matured, Israel received the highest per capita aid from the U.S. of any country. Commenting on the fact, Harvard Middle East specialist Nadav Safran also notes that this amounts to a substantial part of the unprecedented capital transfer to Israel from aboard that constitutes virtually the whole of Israel’s investment – one reason why Israel’s economic progress offers no meaningful model for underdeveloped countries.

alya писал(а): Ну а потом интифада, постоянные теракты на территории Израиля, решение израильтян положить этому конец, построив забор (обозначив таким образом будущую границу) между Израилем и ПА. Ну и ,конечно же, МОМ тут же объявившее его(забор) незаконным и нарушающим основные права человека.
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И почему строят стену через территории?

И про стену тоже. Она разделяет Израиль и ПА по т. наз. "зеленой черте" (британский мандат) и скорее всего так будет выглядеть граница.

Jimmy Carter писал(а): The wall as a prison.
Utilizing their political and military dominance, Israeli leaders are imposing a system of partial withdrawal, encapsulation, and apartheid on the Muslim and Christian citizens of the occupied territories… Withdrawal from Gaza was the first unilateral step, leaving a tiny and nonviable economic and political entity, circumscribed and isolated with no dependable access to the air, sea, or even other Palestinians. The future prospects for the West Bank are even more dismal. Especially troublesome is the huge dividing wall in populated areas and an impassable fence in rural areas… The governments of Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert have built the fence and wall entirely within Palestinian territory, intruding deeply into the West Bank to encompass Israeli settlement blocs and large areas of other Palestinian land. It is projected to be at least three and a half times as long as Israel’s internationally recognized border and already cuts through Palestinian villages, divides families from their gardens and farmland, and includes 375,000 Palestinians on the “Israeli” side of the wall, 175,000 of whom are outside Jerusalem.
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First, a wide swath must be bulldozed through communities before the wall can be built. In addition to the concrete and electrified fencing materials in the construction, the barrier includes two-meter-deep trenches, roads for patrol vehicles, electronic ground and fence sensors, thermal imaging and video cameras, sniper towers, and razor wire – all on Palestinian land.

Noam Chomsky писал(а): In July 2004, the World Court issued an advisory ruling that Israel’s “Separation Wall” dividing the West Bank violates international law, and that it is an “obligation for all States not to recognize the illegal situation resulting from construction of the wall and not to render aid or assistance in maintaining the situation created by such construction”. Since all Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, “the segments of the wall being built by Israel to protect the settlements are ipso facto in violation of the international humanitarian law” – that is, most of the wall.
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The Separation Barrier is to encompass all settlement blocs creating “three Bantustans on the West Bank: first, Jenin-Nablus; second, Bethlehem-Hebron; and third, Ramallah,” Meron Benevisti writes. A particularly cynical component is the virtual encirclement of Palestinian towns and villages, separating residents from their lands, which will in the course of time become “state lands”… The wall around the town of Qalqilya at Israel’s border increases cost and Israeli insecurity, but the town is dying, as intended by this act of supreme cynicism.

The same awaits others. The separation Barrier around illegally annexed Greater Jerusalem, for which there is not even the slimmest pretext of “security” (in fact, it enhances insecurity by enclosing many Palestinians within the projected borders of Israel), “will result in the complete isolation of the village” of Shekh Sa’ad, just east of the Jerusalem municipal boundary and physically connected to a neighbourhood in East Jerusalem on which its residents depend for all aspects of life.
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In this and many other cases, the method is purposeful cruelty, designed so that the residents are “forced to decide between living in a prison and abandoning their homes to live elsewhere.” Those familiar with the history of Zionism will recognize the method, dating back to the 1920s: “dunam after dunam,” arousing as little attention as possible. More generally, as Moshe Dayan put the matter to the Labor cabinet in the 1970s, we must tell the Palestinian refugees in the territories that “we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads.” (повторяю, Chomsky - еврей по национальности. Daning)
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In October 2005, Ha’aretz published a map of “division of the West Bank into ‘blocs.’” The map shows that the northern (Ariel) salient is also to extend to the Israeli-controlled Jordan valley, just as the southern (Ma’aleh Adumim) salient does. The goal is to “sever the northern West bank (including Nablus and Jenin) from its central region,” blocking Palestinian traffic, part of “the big picture of creating three separate blocs in the West Bank.” A few weeks later Sharon informed reporters that Israel “intended to keep control of the Jordan Valley in the occupied West Bank, signalling its insistence on retaining settlements there under any future deal.” It follows that the three cantons are completely contained by Israel.…
The security pretext is frivolous: “A terrorist wishing to enter Israel will find a way to do so, as evident in the large number of Palestinians who manage to do this without a permit. The fact that the trip from Hebron to Bethlehem takes hours does not prevent terrorism; it encourages it.

alya писал(а): Тем временем в Израиле сформировалось 2 точки зрения.

1) Левые: Территории надо отдавать по-любому,это не наше, мы не сможем управлять другим народом без проблем и трений. Что бы мы там не понастроили и не насоздавали. После подписания мирных договоров с Египтом и Иорданией, стало ясно что территории эти отдавать некому, кроме как самим палестинцам. Так что пусть создают там свою страну как умеют, а начат' надо с предоставления им автономии. Пусть начнут с этого, а потом и до государства недалеко.

2) Правые: Иудея и Самария (Западный берег Иордана) - исконно еврейские земли, и не имеет значения что там живут палестинцы. Будем строить, осваивать, они увидят, что так жить лучше и в конце концов свыкнутся. А кто против - дело хозяйское - пусть живет в Иордании, ведь они подданные Иордании. Короче ускромненная версия "Израиль от Нила до Эфрата." Базирующаяса на том, что мы войны не начинали, а кто в войне проиграл, тот - "сам дурак".

Jimmy Carter писал(а): Speaking officially for the Likud coalition, for instance, Foreign Minister Yitzhak Shamir expressed his belief that the root of the Middle East conflict had nothing to do with Israel. He minimized the importance of the Palestinian problem and considered Jews to be the natural rulers of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, with a right and obligation to continue populating the area. Ariel Sharon went further, having called for the overthrow of king Hussein in favour of a Palestinian regime in Jordan, even if headed by Yassir Arafat. He added that the east bank of the Jordan is “ours but not in our hands, just as East Jerusalem had been until the Six-Day War. – (то есть чувак призывал к захвату и колонизации всей территории Иордании - Daning).”
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In March 1996, Foreign Minister Ariel Sharon declared the Oslo Agreement to be “national suicide” and stated. “Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”… As President Clinton made efforts to promote peace, there was a 90 percent growth in the number of settlers in the occupied territories, with the greatest increase during the administration of Prime Minister Ehud Barak. By the end of the year 2000, Israeli settlers in the West Bank and Gaza numbered 225,000. The best offer to the Palestinians – by Clinton, not Barak – had been to withdraw 20 percent of the settlers, leaving more than 180,000 in 209 settlements.

alya писал(а): Так что ,Daning, с виду такая заманчивая перспектива - отдать им территории и настанет мир - оказалась не очень эффективной.
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A тем временем у них уже целое поколение выросло с 90х годов, в слепой ненависти и без средств к существованию.
Ну, и с кем разговаривать?

Noam Chomsky писал(а): In 1976, the United States vetoed a Syrian-initiated resolution calling for a two-state settlement on the international borders backed by the major Arab states and Arafat’s PLO… In the years tht followed, the United States, virtually alone, blocked the very broad international consensus on a similar diplomatic resolution, while supporting Israel’s expansion into the occupied territories.
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The United States continues to block a diplomatic resolution. One important recent example was the presentation of the Geneva Accord in December 2002. The detailed proposals for a two-state solution, formulated by unofficial but prominent Israeli and Palestinian negotiators, were supported by the broad international consensus, with usual exception: “the United States conspicuously was not among the governments sending a message of support,” the New York Times reported in a dismissive article. Israel rejected the offer.
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In May 1989, the Israeli coalition government headed by Yitzhak Shamir and Shimon Peres reaffirmed the Israeli political consensus in its peace plan. The first principle was that there could be no “additional Palestinian state” between Jordan and Israel – Jordan already being a “Palestinian state.”
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That the Gaza pullout was in reality an expansion plan was hardly concealed. As the plan was made public, Finance Minister Netanyahu announced that “Israel will invest tens of millions of dollars in Weest Bank settlements as it withdraws from the Gaza strip.” When the government approved the plan, Sharon and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz “met to discuss another matter: bolstering West Bank settlement blocs that are slated to be annexed to Israel under a final agreement.”
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Meanwhile, Eldar and Zartel conclude, “the lives of the large majority of Israelis within the green line (the international border) continue undisturbed, while the settlements (in the occupied territories) conquer the state of Israel on the one hand, and destroy the lives of the Palestinians on the other.”

alya писал(а):A им ни мир , ни тем более страна , похоже, на данном этапе не нужны, как ни странно.

Noam Chomsky писал(а): By refusing peace, Israel chose dependency on the United States, “the boss-man called ‘partner,’” as one one of Israel’s leading political commentators describes the relationship. As long as Israel’s actions conform to US objectives, it receives the diplomatic, military, and economic support that facilitates its takeover of valuable parts of the occupied territories and its development into a rich industrial society. But when the boss-man draws the line, Israel must obey. There have been repeated occasions. One arose in 2005, when the United States ordered Israel to terminate its sales of advanced military technology to China. Israel sought to evade or mitigate the restrictions, but in vain. The United States imposed sanctions… These are bitter blows to Israel. Apart from the direct insults, these sales are a crucial component of the militarized Israeli high-tech export economy. But Israel has no alternative when the boss-man speaks, and understands that it cannot rely on the US domestic lobby, which knows better than to confront state power on important matters. The choice of expansion and associated dependence has had deleterious effects on Israeli society, while foreclosing beneficial alternatives, and it risks consequences that could be quite serious in the unpredictable world of international affairs.

Gerrat писал(а):OOH было образовано конкретными людьми - за необходимостью ведения конфликтов в определенных регионах (военно-промышленный комлекс приносил, приносит и еще долго будет приносить прибыль). Израиль, а также марионеточные режимы Арабских государств поддерживают конфликт - и те и другие вынуждены закупать вооружения (но страдает гражданское население).

Noam Chomsky писал(а): Furthermore, the crises will be serious in what President Eisenhower called “the most strategically important area in the world.” In the early post-War years, the United States in effect extended the Monroe Doctrine to the Middle East, barring any interference apart from Britain, assumed to be a loyal dependency and quickly punished when occasionally got out of hand (as in 1956).

The strategic importance of the region lies primarily in its immense petroleum reserves and the global power accorded by control over them; and, crucially, from the huge profits that flow to the Anglo-American rulers, which have been of critical importance for their economies. It has been necessary to ensure that this enormous wealth flows primarily to the West, not to the people of the region. That is one fundamental problem that will continue to cause unrest and disorder. Another is the Israel-Arab conflict with its many ramifications, which have been closely related to the major U.S. strategic goal of dominating the region’s resources and wealth.

Clearly, as long as the United States provides the wherewithal, Israel will use it for its purposes. These purposes are clear enough today, and have been clear to those who chose to understand for many years: to integrate the bulk of the occupied territories within Israel in some fashion while finding a way to reduce the Arab population; to disperse the scattered refugees and crush any manifestation of Palestinian nationalism of Palestinian culture.

According to Texas Congressman Ron Paul, Giuliani's fiery response prompted applause and the following demand from the former mayor: "I would ask the congressman to withdraw that comment and tell us that he didn't really mean that."

In response, Paul stood by his comments and said that "if we think that we can do what we want around the world and not incite hatred, then we have a problem ... They come and they attack us because we're over there."

Ron Paul, a Republican congressman running for president, is saying what needs to be said about the 9/11 attacks and the Iraq war. Clearly, his rivals and the news media can't handle the truth.

"Have you ever read the reasons they attacked us? They attack[ed] us because we've been over there; we've been bombing Iraq for 10 years. We've been in the Middle East," Paul said.

oblom писал(а):я за евреев, на арабов наплевать

Daning писал(а):

oblom писал(а):я за евреев, на арабов наплевать

а я за евреев И за арабов, но против империализЬма

oblom писал(а):и в чем он заключается? в раздаче всех республик направо и налево в свое время. Хорош империализм.

вернуть взад

oblom писал(а):

вернуть взад

у кого? у опозиционной прессы?