Израильтяне, прокомментируйте.

Вопросы международной политики.
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alya
Житель
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Зарегистрирован: 23 мар 2005, 21:11

Сообщение alya »

bedi писал(а):
Так вот: я знаю лучше Вас хотя-бы потому, что я там жил!
Костя, для него это не аргумент. Я пробовал, это неизлечимо. :)
Just relax and enjoy :)
Беди,
защитник и борец за мир пошло спать, а вы тут у него за спиной сионистские козни строите!
Некрасиво так, непошаломахшавски.
Сионисты!
Скока поселений понастроили! А скока садов понаразрушали! Ух!
Нда... не лечится это. И правда не лечится. :cry:
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Baguk
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Сообщение Baguk »

Эта тема всегда будет особой на форуме. Потому что часть форумчан воспринимает израильско-палестинско-арабский конфликт совершенно абстрактно, и дискуссия для них только упражнение в изящной словесности. Другую часть же, происходящее касается лично, через семьи, близких друзей, жизненный опыт. Цифры (столько-то убитых и раненых в терактах, во время боевых действий) воплощаются в воспоминания о знакомых, пострадавших в этих событиях. Призывы к миру и помощи вызывают воспоминания о нечеловеческой жестокости борцов за свободу палестинского народа, и т.д. Смею думать, никто из форумчан не пострадал лично от израильской военщины.

И поэтому некоторые посты подсознательно воспринимаются как вражеская пропаганда. На самом деле, хотелось бы верить, их авторы не желают истребить израильский народ, а просто по наивности попались на удочку той самой вражеской пропаганды.
Daning
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Сообщение Daning »

"Патриоты" Израиля говорят:

The hatred the Gentiles (то есть шесть с лишним миллиардов неевреев планеты) feel towards the Jews is eternal. There never was peace between us and them except when they totally beat us or when we shall totally beat them. Maybe if they will give someone like Sharon the chance to kill off as many of them as possible, destroy their countries, until the Arabs will understand that we did them a favour in letting them remain alive… We are powerful now and power should talk now. The Gentiles only understand the language of power.

We know that the Arab is an obedient good creature as long as he is not incited and no one puts ideas into his head… He just has to be told exactly what his right place is… They must understand who the master is.

Western culture is not for us. The Torah is far more modern than western culture. The ways of God are great. The Arabs are a trial, but if we are strong and obstinate, it will be the beginning of salvation. One must be totally blind not to see that the Settlement is the beginning of salvation.

Israel should be a “mad state,” so that they understand we are a wild country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, capable of opening World War III, with nuclear weapons if necessary. Then they will act carefully around us so as not to anger the wounded animal.

It’s a pity we didn’t wipe that wasps nest (Lebanon) completely off the ground. We should have done Sabra-Shatila with our own delicate hands. Can you call 500 Arabs a massacre? We shall open another similar war, kill and destroy more and more, until they have had enough.

Our goal is to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel, to burn them, to make us hated by all, to make the ground unstable beneath the feet of the Jews in the Diaspora so that they shall be forced to rush here crying.

If we had come to Palestine and killed six million Arabs, then we would now be a people of 25 million, from the Suez canal to the oil fields.
Daning
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Сообщение Daning »

Израильские идеологи говорят:
Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983 писал(а): We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.
[quote="Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum""] We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." [/quote]
[quote="Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas."] Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" [/quote]
Vladimir Jabotinsky, founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud), The Iron Wall, 1923 писал(а): "A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf... Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important... to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot - or else I am through with playing at colonizing."
Ben Gurion писал(а): The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill -- From the Nile to the Euphrates.
[quote="Moshe Dayan (Israel Defense and Foreign Minister), on February 12, 1952. Radio "Israel.""] It lies upon the people's shoulders to prepare for the war, but it lies upon the Israeli army to carry out the fight with the ultimate object of erecting the Israeli Empire. [/quote]
Moshe Joseph Weitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194. Machover Israca, January 5, 1973 p.2 писал(а): The only solution is Eretz Israel [Greater Israel], or at least Western Eretz Israel [all the land west of Jordan River], without Arabs. There is no room for compromise on this point ... We must not leave a single village, not a single tribe.
David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157. писал(а): We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."
Golda Meir, March 8, 1969 писал(а): How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.
Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969 писал(а): There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.".
David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978. писал(а): We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai."".
Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989. писал(а): Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
Isreali Prime Minister, Yitzhak Shamir, in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988. писал(а): “The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.
Daning
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Сообщение Daning »

Israel doesn't want peace
The moment of truth has arrived, and it has to be said: Israel does not want peace. The arsenal of excuses has run out, and the chorus of Israeli rejection already rings hollow. Until recently, it was still possible to accept the Israeli refrain that "there is no partner" for peace and that "the time isn't right" to deal with our enemies. Today, the new reality before our eyes leaves no room for doubt and the tired refrain that "Israel supports peace" has been left shattered.

It's hard to determine when the breaking point occurred. Was it the absolute dismissal of the Saudi initiative? The refusal to acknowledge the Syrian initiative? Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's annual Passover interviews? The revulsion at the statements made by Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, in Damascus, alleging that Israel was ready to renew peace talks with Syria?

Who would have believed it? A high-ranking U.S. official says Israel wants peace talks to resume and instantly her president "severely" denies the veracity of her words. Is Israel even hearing these voices? Are we digesting the significance of these voices for peace? Seven million apathetic Israeli citizens prove that we are not.

Entire generations grew up here weaned on self-deception and doubt about the likelihood of achieving peace with our neighbors. In our younger days, David Ben-Gurion told us that if he were only able to meet with Arab leaders, he would have brought us peace in his time. Israel has demanded direct negotiations as a matter of principle and Israelis have derived great pride from the fact that their daily focus on "peace" has concealed their state's lofty ambitions. We were told that there was no partner for peace and that the ultimate ambition of the Arabs is to bring about our destruction. We burned the portraits of "the Egyptian tyrant" at our bonfires on Lag Ba'omer, and were convinced that all blame for the lack of peace lied with our enemies.

After that came the occupation, followed by terror, Yassir Arafat, the failed second Camp David Summit and the rise of Hamas to power, and we were sure, always sure, that it was all their fault. In our wildest dreams, we wouldn't have believed that the day would come when the entire Arab world would extend its hand in peace and Israel would brush away the gesture. It would have been even crazier to imagine that this Israeli refusal would have been blamed on not wanting to enrage domestic public opinion.

The world has been turned upside down and it is Israel that stands at the forefront of refusal. The policy of refusal of a select few, a vanguard of the extreme, has now become the official policy of Jerusalem. In his Passover interviews, Olmert will tell us that, "The Palestinians stand at the crossroads of a historic decision," but people stopped taking him seriously a long time ago. The historic decision is ours, and we are fleeing from this crossroads and from these initiatives as if from death itself.

Terror, used as the ultimate excuse for Israeli refusal, only helps Olmert keep reciting, ad nauseum, "If they [the Palestinians] don't change, don't fight terror and don't adhere to any of their obligations, then they will never extract themselves from their unending chaos." As though the Palestinians haven't taken measures against terrorism, as though Israel is the one to determine what their obligations are, as though Israel isn't to blame for the unending chaos Palestinians suffer under the occupation.

Israel makes a point of setting prerequisites and believes it has an exclusive right to do so. But, time and time again, Israel avoids the most basic prerequisite for any just peace - an end to the occupation. Of all the questions asked during his Passover interviews, no one bothered to ask Olmert why he didn't react with excitement to the recent Arab initiatives, without preconditions? The answer: real estate. The real estate of the settlements.

It's not only Olmert who is dragging his feet. A leading figure in the Labor party said last week that "it will take five to 10 years to recover from the trauma." Peace is now no more than a threatening wound, with no one still talking about the massive social benefits it would bring in development, security, freedom of movement in the region and by establishing a more just society.

Like a little Switzerland, we are focusing more these days on the dollar exchange rate and on the allegations of embezzlement leveled against the Finance Ministry than on the fateful opportunities fading away before our very eyes.

Not every day and not even in every generation do we encounter an opportunity like this. Although it's not for sure if the initiatives are completely solid and believable, or if they are based on trickery, no one has stepped up to challenge or acknowledge them. When Olmert is an elderly grandfather, what will he tell his grandchildren? That he turned over every stone in the name of peace? That there was no other choice? What will his grandchildren say?
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